From the Writer’s Desk: Ordain Women Movement Mocked, Harassed, and Degraded While Church Preaches Tolerance

UPC Researcher - Dave McGee
UPC Researcher – Dave McGee

As I sit down to write about my experience involving the Ordain Women Movement on Temple Square, I want to stress that this is only a collection of my thoughts and experiences. I am speaking only for myself, I have no desire to speak for anyone else. This is not a history of the Ordain Women movement or a defense/attack of Latter Day Saint beliefs or theology.  I recognize my experiences are not nor are they meant to be a reflection of the larger membership of either group.

Last October a group of about 100 women gathered inside temple square to attempt to get tickets to attend the LDS Church’s Priesthood General Conference. They were turned away by church workers. This year they gathered on April 5th to attempt this action again.

Many women in my extended family are practicing Mormons who support the Ordain Women movement. This movement has been active in various incarnations since the 1970’s. My grandmother was one such member who supported those attempts. I have grown up around discussions of why women should be allowed to hold the priesthood. Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I was raised Mormon but am no longer practicing. I have no animosity towards the church and when I do think of the LDS faith my feelings tend to be in the direction of respectful indifference.

Once I heard of this latest organization pushing for ordination I wanted to go and observe as well as help in a small way. To this end my brother and I went to temple square to stand in line to obtain priesthood tickets.  We arrived at about 3:30 when the line was about 100 people for standby tickets. By the time we got our tickets about an hour later the line had swelled to about 600-800 people.

While in line many members were lightheartedly mocking the Ordain Women movement, as well as making general statements about why people could not just allow the church to have general conference in peace.

While I agree with the idea that people should be allowed to worship in peace and safety there seemed to be a general consensus that the Ordain Women’s movement was the same as the vehement anti-Mormon protesters outside the gates. It occurred to me as it had in the past that I and my brother were welcome and in fact encouraged to attend the priesthood session yet faithful members were discouraged from attending. The welcoming attitude seemed to depend entirely on if you possessed the required dangling bits, rather than on an attendee’s theological beliefs.  At one point a church usher came by and told the man in front of me that his 6 year old daughter would have to step out of line when we got closer to where the tickets were being handed out.

After my brother and I received our tickets, we walked over to City Creek Park, across the street from the Temple grounds, where we found about 500 people gathered to listen to speakers and talk to each other.

Our intention was to simply hand the tickets to one of the organizers and to then just observe. Once we had asked who we could give the tickets to we were escorted in front of several news cameras, photographers and various documentarians and asked briefly why we were doing this.

Speaking only for myself, I told reporters that I support women having the priesthood and that I also would like to give these tickets to someone who would appreciate them. Additionally that by handing the tickets over it would remove the easy excuse of turning women away by saying there were not enough seats.

After the brief interaction there were several speakers addressing the crowd followed by a hymn and prayer. Once finished, people were organized into a line and began to walk over to Temple Square. While walking onto church property, hecklers demanded that “Women must submit to your husbands and boyfriends” as well as calls of “apostate,” and addressing the men in the group as “sissy boys” and “faggots.” One male member of the Ordain Women group responded with “I do submit to my husband” This was met with calls of “sodomite” and “abomination.”

Once the group had entered church property, several small groups of two to three men dressed in suits and appearing to be church members though not church employees continued to heckle the group, demanding to see Temple recommends and proof of church membership. There were further cries of “apostates,” “repent,” “false members,” as well as one individual again yelling “faggot.”

At this point I want to stress that these gentleman do not represent the church and I doubt that any church member would support their actions particularly while on church property.

Once reaching the East Gates of the temple ground itself, it was found that the gates had been shut. While the leading members of Ordain Women stopped to pray at the gates while surrounded by photographers, a 20-something man and woman who seemed oblivious to what was going on opened the gates from the inside to exit the temple grounds. What appeared to be a church employee attempted to close the gates, but by then the Ordain Women’s movement had begun to enter and soon both gates were opened.

Most photo and video journalists did not enter temple grounds following previous request from church leadership that they refrain from doing so. Upon approaching the Tabernacle where overflow seating for the Priesthood session of conference was being held, the Ordain Woman’s movement began lining up in front of the entrance to the Tabernacle.  They were met with church workers who refused them admittance based on the fact that they did not have tickets as well as that they were women.

It should be noted that tickets had been distributed two hours prior, but that the Ordain Women members did, in fact, have the two tickets my brother and I had given them. While this was happening there were several videographers and people with professional grade still cameras capturing the scene, as well as many cell phone cameras. One videographer was approached by church security who informed them that cameras were not allowed on temple grounds. When the camera operator pointed out others with cameras, the security personnel responded that “they are credentialed.”

Soon afterwards, groups of men appeared with umbrellas and began blocking cameras from being able to record. These men did not appear to be church employees but rather church members who happened to be there.

While this was happening, many other people on the temple grounds were watching with various degrees of bemusement or simple confusion as to what was going on. After being turned away, several women broke down in tears and were comforted by those around them.

As I began to leave, I heard a group of young men in suits making mocking comments about the crying women. One of them commented, “What do they care, they should be baking.”

My overall impression is that the Ordain Women’s movement handled themselves with class and dignity. They were met by the church with respect, but a firm refusal. And as always, there are outliers who make one side or another look bad by dealing in ad-hominum attacks. In this instance, none of which (from what I observed) came from members of the Ordain Women movement.

Images from the Ordain Women’s Movement Walk on Temple Square – April 5, 2014

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From The Writer’s Desk is a feature from Utah Political Capitol that gives our writers an opportunity to express their opinions on the events of the day. Writer Op-Eds do not necessarily reflect the opinions of UPC or its staff.

39 Replies to “From the Writer’s Desk: Ordain Women Movement Mocked, Harassed, and Degraded While Church Preaches Tolerance

  1. I think one of my favorite Maxwell quotes applies here: “Quickly forgotten […] is the fact that the Church is “for the perfecting of the saints” (Eph. 4:12); it is not a well-provisioned rest home for the already perfected.”

    Even on their way to a meeting designed to make them better people, the men attending the LDS General Conference Priesthood meeting need some improvement, no matter their beliefs on the merits of the Ordain Women activists.

  2. I understand that these comments were offhanded and inappropriate, but even you would understand that nobody, including members of the LDS church, is perfect, and frequently says and does things that are inexcusable. I wouldn’t ever condone those comments either. But your intentionally pejorative title of the article about tolerance is misleading as well. The Church preaches tolerance, the members may choose to listen to those preachings or not.

    Here, watch the talk from Dalln H. Oaks about this subject regarding priesthood authority, if you haven’t already (first one of the session):

    THIS is what the Church preaches. Not what you hear from misogynistic members who should know better.

    1. You do understand the irony that those opposing Ordain Women accused them of not heading to the teachings of the prophet and apostles, and yet when these same people are caught, committing the same “sin” their are those, such as yourself justifying it as, and I quote

      “I understand that these comments were offhanded and inappropriate, but even you would understand that nobody, including members of the LDS church, is perfect, and frequently says and does things that are inexcusable. I wouldn’t ever condone those comments either. But your intentionally pejorative title of the article about tolerance is misleading as well. The Church preaches tolerance, the members may choose to listen to those preaching’s or not.”

      Which is the greater sin, women following their testimonies, and their faith, and peaceably seeking that which is inherently theirs? Or Priesthood holders attending a church meeting all the while heckling, belittling and degrading these women, daughters of a Heavenly King? NO matter which way, you swing it, sway it, or shape it, these women did no wrong, they seek only these blessings to do good with their service and works and strengthen our church. And the men who heckled and continue to be cruel, who have these blessings, used them most unwisely that day, and continue to do so. The hearts of these women, sisters, daughters and mothers are not contentious by any means, yet they are met with contention from the very priesthood holders, they seek to join. Yes, my friend there is real irony here, and it stems from those who preach the loudest.

  3. I tried to stress and I strongly feel that comments made by the few observers (I also tried to make clear indications of who was obviously a church employee, security, usher, etc, vs those simply dressed as members habitually dress during conference weekend.) are not indicative of church teachings. I just wanted to illustrate my experience on Saturday. Going into it I had no idea what to expect. I should also stress the many hundreds of people on Temple Square who made no comments. As well ass the many many members who frankly seemed unsure of what was going on.

    1. Dave, I appreciate that you tried to stress that in the body of the article, but your headline is deeply misleading and in the interest of integrity I respectfully request that you edit it. Your headline is not reflective of your content, and the headline, as NPR’s recent April Fool’s Day prank illustrated, is about as far as most people will read. Your headline sets up a dichotomy between the way church leaders are speaking and the way in which OW was treated – the first implication in anyone’s mind is going to be that it is members of the church ignoring their leaders and treating OW that way, and that there is hypocrisy. This is not representative of what you observed. You can argue that it can be read more than one way, but most people are not going to do that, and as a writer you have a responsibility to be clear about what you mean. You state that it was the presumably non-Mormon protestors outside who were degrading OW, and THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO THE PROPHET ANYWAY. It’s inappropriate and misleading to set up the two (non-Mormon protestors and church leadership) on a continuum in the same sentence in the manner that you did in this headline. As your sister in Christ I applaud you making an account of what you saw, but I plead with you to be clear and honest in every part of this, including the headline, particularly when you know people will not read it in the way you are saying you wrote it.

  4. I can’t help but feel that several people involved in this incident are presenting themselves in a false light. In reading the article about this in the DN it sates that the leader of ordain women is a civil rights attorney from Washington DC. Yeah right. That sounds just like your typical LDS woman. Also, the author of this article claims that while he is no longer involved with the church he regards the church with “respectful indifference”. I am an actual active member of the church and a woman to boot. I have lived most of my life, amounting to 40 some years now, in Salt Lake City. I have gone to the General Women’s Meeting exactly one time, and that was because my mother in law was on the general board and wanted all her female family members there. I went because I love my mother in law. It was a pain in the neck and I far prefer watching it at home in my pajamas. I find it very hard to believe that an indifferent non member just up and out of the blue for no particular reason on a lovely spring Saturday night could find nothing better to do with his time but to stand in line to a meeting he does not want to attend to obtain tickets he has no intention of using. I wish he would just admit that he does have an agenda here and not insult the readers intelligence in this way, As to the issue of women holding the priesthood, I for one am sincerely annoyed at these women. As is, I am often feeling pushed to my limits and overextended in my church activity. Right now I am in a Relief Society Presidency and the calling requires pretty much 24/7 attention. While I believe it is good for me to be challenged and I love the opportunity to serve the women in my ward I DO NOT WANT ADDITIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES!!!! I’m Good. If these women are that unhappy they should just go start their own thing since it is obvious what the prophet says does not matter to them much. I am in this church because I like it!! If I wanted a church that allowed for greater ecclesiastical duties for women I would go join one. Like with the homosexual community, the more I hear them complain the less sympathetic I am to their cause, as well as their feelings. And I really did use to be sympathetic to the homosexuals and the disgruntled church women. It is hard to give someone else sympathetic respect for their point of view when they so blatantly have no regard for yours. Additionally, I do not want to attend the priesthood meetings (great more meetings!) because I do not particularly want men super involved with Relief Society. If the ordain women would just shut up and get some real members in there they might discover that a lot of us would just love to have our old relief society back, with its women lead leadership, women written manuals and their own independent budget. Now that is something I know a lot of women would get behind.

    1. I think Chris demonstrates the author’s point very well. Rather than consider the actual merits of the argument, she instead seeks to try and discredit those making the argument. “A Mormon woman who’s a lawyer? Ha, yeah right. A disaffected member who has respectful indifference? He must have a secret agenda.”

      And it’s not just Chris, a whole lot of members feel the same way as she does. They argue that the Church is not a democracy, yet at the same time hypocritically point out that the OW folks are the minority.

      I, for one, hope that the Ordain Women movement is the start of a fruitful dialogue in which we can try to find a way to have more equity between the sexes in the Church.

      1. I did not engage in arguing the merits of the ows point here because my comments were mostly focused on addressing the motivations of the articles author. Has he admitted he is not a member it seems pretty ridiculous to engage in a doctrinal debate with him. I have debated this issue many times with others who are of my faith though and feel I understand the reasoning from all sides. I am member of this church and I love the church. I am very aware of its short comings and have my own wish list of things I wish were different. However, I am deeply resentful and suspicious of people who are not members and only wish to foment trouble. I fully realize that people like the author have one goal and that is the destruction of the church as a moral force in the world. I am sure he knows his reasons and probably most of you here do too. I just simply called him out on it. I know women who are for ow. Frankly they all have (at least) one foot out the door already and are very engaged in political activism of all sorts. Their membership for the most part is merely a technicality they use to give them the appearance of authenticity. For the most part they do not care about the health and well being of the church anymore than this author does. The author does not believe in the church, therefore he does not believe in the priesthood. However he spent a great deal of time helping support people who are trying to obtain something he does not even believe in. If you all want to ignore the obvious reason, then go right ahead, I choose not to. As to approaching this from a self-centered point of view, I guess I forgot myself. I realize I am certainly no civil rights lawyer from Washington and therefor have no business spouting off on an internet comments section sharing my opinion. With all the talk of womens rights being bandied about around here I guess it was silly of my to think that would include me. In the future I will try to restrict my opinions to those of ow and other approved groups. You guys are awesome feminists!

        1. Chris- Like you, I don’t particularly want extra church responsibilities. I’m a lifelong member, active, hold a temple recommend. I love the gospel. I’m not a part of ordain women, but have many dear friends who are, so I went downtown on saturday evening, to support them. I stood to the side and watched the events.

          I have no agenda, I certainly do not wish to make the church look bad.

          Kim Farrah, the PR person who met the women at the door was kind, and I can’t help but think she was touched by the heartfelt requests of the women there. She, I think, represents the way the church ought to be. She wasn’t able to let the women in, but she was kind and loving, and made the women feel like she really felt their pain and sincerity.

          The official statement from the PR department was nothing like what I observed. I am really struggling to reconcile what I saw and how the PR department is interpreting things. It feels so cold and calculating, and so so un christlike. Franky I feel pretty heartbroken about it.

          1. Alice – I really do appreciate your thoughtful reply to what I said. I think many of us are feeling a lot of the same things you express. Unfortunately, I believe that is the goal. I too have friends and family (distant) that are supportive of this cause. While I love them and they have many wonderful qualities, I cannot deny the reality of who they are. The ones I know in it have mostly not attended church for years, except maybe for the occasional baby blessing They have not asked to have their names removed from the rolls so they are technically still members but are completely inactive. They are however very active in left wing politics and mostly have animus towards the church. I feel this is just their latest venue to go off in. It is hard for me to give much care to the issues these women raise when I have this understanding of who they are and what their real purpose is.

        2. Chris, I am also a lifelong member, temple recommend holding, attend weekly and teach Sunday School. I love the church and want to celebrate the good it does. I am raising my kids with the best example of faith that I can, with daily scripture study, a prayerful home, and a respect for my God. And I am sympathetic to the desires that OW are expressing, desires not for more meetings or more power but to minister to greater capacity. Our marvelous church is a home for all who want to come unto Christ, and official church policy explains that we recognize that the principles of the Gospel can be found across the political spectrum. Please, let’s not demonize our brothers and sisters for being different from us, for feeling different desires to serve than we do. The body of Christ does not need a million of the same body part, says 1 Corinthians 12, but all of us in our difference. That difference produces charity and patience, which are the supernal attributes of the Savior. I wish you blessings of peace and charity.

        3. In one breath you clearly stated “While I believe it is good for me to be challenged and I love the opportunity to serve the women in my ward I DO NOT WANT ADDITIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES!!!! I’m Good.” And in the next breath you say “For the most part they do not care about the health and well being of the church anymore than this author does. The author does not believe in the church, therefore he does not believe in the priesthood.”

          So women seeking ordination to better serve in the church, in callings, serve others and our Lord are uncaring and not as religious because they do not believe in the church as you do, yet you clearly don’t want any more responsibilities because you are already stretched too thin!!? Your logic astounds me. Isn’t it one of our soul purposes as members to serve others in the name of our Heavenly Father? So you are really just upset that these women are asking for more blessings, more calling and the ability to be in better service to there fellow man? Well, thanks for clearing all that up. Perhaps many members are afraid that the majority of OW’s members are well educated, contributing members to society, with a broader spectrum of who could be helped by services. They rocked the boat, but not for the reasons you stated. And for someone who clearly is stretched too thin, maybe it would be better for a member of OW who is seeking more in callings and service to be provided with the way to do so. After all, they asked, and became witnesses to a truth you clearly do not want to see.

          1. Ummm….Did you even READ my post all the way through? It seems pretty obvious you did not. Again, I was addressing the motivations of the AUTHOR when I said that I thought it was ridiculous for him to go through so much trouble to support these women in obtaining something he himself does not believe in. Especially when he then turns around and claims to be “indifferent” I think it was. You really should read things in order. That way you can better understand the context in which a statement was presented. As near as I can tell you are just pulling random statements from different parts and applying your own meaning. Additionally, I am not making sweeping statements about every member of OW. Just the ones I personally know. I guess I would have to say I do think I am more religious then them, (the ones I know) in light of the fact that they do not go to church or believe in the church or even believe in God. They are simply agitators, like the author of this article. I just thought people deserved to know who some of these women are. And yes, I am completely terrified of anyone with an education who contributes to society. You are super insightful.

    2. That doesn’t really sound like equality and you seem to be approaching this from a very self-centered view. YOU are in a Relief Society Presidency position so YOU don’t want the priesthood. YOU don’t want to attend meetings, etc. Well, that’s great, but as you can obviously see, there are women who do want those things and your personal opinions really have no impact on how they feel.

      Also, your comment, “[…]a lot of us would just love to have our old relief society back, with its women lead leadership, women written manuals and their own independent budget.” would imply that men are in fact overly involved in Relied Society, while actively keeping women out of Priesthood sessions. Definitely not equality.

  5. I went to observe (I really viewed this as a historic occasion) and I think your comments are an accurate representation. I’m a dude, and wandering around the tabernacle I found the comments from many men to be disgusting and embarrassing. I was ashamed to be a Mormon for a moment.

  6. People show their true colors when when they don’t have a good justifiable reason for their position as seen with these emotional and ad hominem attacks. This was likely seen on both sides of this issue, but it is clear to me that these members of the church that resorted to these personal attacks must lack a strong personal conviction that there is true gender equality in the church leadership and culture. I fully support these brave sisters and men who were willing to show their support of the church and its ability to progress towards gender equality. On a lighter note, I think this video brings out the issue really well:

  7. Interesting report, Dave. It seems similar to what I heard on the ground from some acquaintances of mine who are actually participants in OW.

    Throughout these last pair of priesthood sessions, I’ve been deeply ashamed by the horrid treatment that the members of OW have been receiving. I’ve been embarrassed by the unprofessional and dishonest press releases from the church’s PR department. All of this commotion underscores more than anything the desperate need we Mormons have of a forum for this kind of discussion.

    And despite OW’s failure to secure female ordination, nobody can argue with results:
    1)Average, everyday Mormons discussing female ordination in their homes
    2)Women praying in conference
    3)The women’s auxilliaries sitting mixed with General Authorities on the stage
    4)Elder Oaks’ talk, which was the most in depth elucidation of priesthood authority and keys I’ve heard in ages, along with some interesting ideas that seem to blaze new ground
    5)A massive influx of sister missionaries and leadership opportunities
    6)Women’s meeting twice a year, similar to the priesthood session

    You can argue that these changes have nothing to do with OW, but they were suspiciously synchronous…

    1. These are all great changes, but didn’t the Church add all the sister missionaries before OW started protesting conferences? If the Church started making big changes first, I don’t think OW can claim credit for them 🙂

  8. This article is very biased!! My parents are LDS church volunteers and were outside the tabernacle the entire time. They told us of how they heard and saw rudeness FROM members of the Ordain Women group when they were turned away. They did not hear or see any rudeness from those who were coming to attend the conference or from any church workers/volunteers. Also, who knows who these people were that you are claiming were yelling things at the Ordain Women group. For all we know, they could have been non-members who just wanted to make the church look bad. Furthermore, the fact that you and your brother gave your tickets to this group, shows that you do support them and that you indeed have an agenda that you are trying to push by writing this article.

    1. There is nothing wrong for this group to “ask” the church leaders & God about this topic. The problem lies in the fact that they do not accept the answers which have been kindly given. They continue to persist and even demonstrate when politely asked not to. It is true that some members of the church have said unkind things to this group, and that should not happen. People are not perfect, but the gospel is! Do not let the mistakes of men blurr your vision of what is happening here. They asked, they got an answer, and that should be the end of it.

  9. Excellent article. I get so incensed that these women were treated poorly by some observers. As an LDS female that is not a part of the OW movement I wholeheartedly support their efforts. The LDS church was founded upon a young boy asking God for truth. What what kind of members would we be if we didn’t encourage the rich tradition on which our faith is based- asking God for further revelation? Thank you for your efforts to put forth your observance of the OW request.

  10. The church leadership has been very patient and loving to this group. In this Conference they encouraged all members to be kind, be loving and to forgive. This is good council for ALL of us no matter which side we agree with. Please do not continue to cause disrupt and divide among people by writing articles like this. Trying to make one side look “less than” does not help the situation, it only makes things worse and more agitated. What society needs is more people to write articles that promote peace and to share things that uplift humanity, instead of focusing on the negative and bringing it down.

  11. I was there, participating in the demonstration, walking from BY park to temple square. I support the OW movement. I find the descriptions in this post to be very exaggerated, relative to my own experience. The only really egregious hecklers were the ones outside the temple grounds, and those guys were clearly not Mormon. Those are the crazy biker evangelicals that would (and do) yell things just as offensive to any Mormon on conference weekend. I find this post to be very misleading because it lumps those guys in with the actual Mormons who engaged the procession on temple grounds.

    Once we were on temple grounds, only one person did what I would characterize as “heckling.” It was the tall, weird looking guy with the bicycle. And he wasn’t yelling epithets, he was saying “Where’s your recommend? You’re false members!” He seemed kind of creepy, but I didn’t find him intimidating, or really even offensive.

    I’m not denying that the other stuff the author of this post describes happened. I’m just saying that I was there and I didn’t see or experience any of that.

  12. I was the person with the clipboard registering people that first approached the two of you; I really appreciate the symbolic gesture of your tickets and the rest of us do as well. I was towards the back of the line and didn’t see much of the heckling that seemed to be reserved for the front of the line (not to mention the things said in a male-only space that I wouldn’t have been privy to anyway because of my gender), but this post matches the accounts I’ve read that two other people at the front of the line have written.

  13. I was there too. The people who were yelling things were the street preachers and hecklers that aren’t even members of the LDS church. They yell things at anyone walking towards Temple Square during conference time. It is unfair to lay blame on the members of the church in this way as you attempt to discredit the church. Satan is the father of contention and he is thrilled that you are writing articles like this that promote contention and misrepresentation. You might want to reassess your statements and motives.

    1. Hi Lynn. I saw those disparaging remarks from both the street preachers and our brothers on Temple Square. I’m assuming this is what the author meant as well.

  14. I thought it was very interesting how the hail started coming down HARD right as this group started to make their way to temple square. Coincidence? I don’t believe so! God has shown His displeasure, by using things like the weather, many times before as recorded in the scriptures. I think this group would be happier if they could focus on being grateful for what they have, instead of focusing on what they don’t have. It is a form of ingratitude and it has selfish undertones.

    1. What utter nonsense Meg. You actually think God was showing his displeasure at these women? FYI it hailed on all the members too in and around temple square, so what have THEY been up to that the Lord is displeased with huh? And stop spouting off the party line of “ingratitude” and “Selfishness” , your very words condemn you as to how the leaders and members of the church put enormous pressure on women to not put themselves first EVER !!!

  15. For those of you who actually attended the event, thank you for clarifying who the “hecklers” really were. That shows some integrity. I do have one sincere question. Inequality is based on the fact that people don’t have access to the same rewards or other incentives that others do. We often speak of it as a “glass ceiling”. It does exist in every sphere I can think of in our society. However, I do not believe it applies to the gospel of Jesus Christ or how the church runs its organization. In the LDS doctrine, it is very clear that ALL men and women can achieve exaltation IF (1) they are sealed to a companion, (2) honor their covenants, (3) obey the commandments, and (4) repent along the way. The “reward” is the same for men and women even though men are ordained to the priesthood. So, my question is, since exaltation is available to all and there are no “bonus points” or “extra credit” earned from holding certain callings during your life time, what is unequal? If we all have access to the same blessings regardless of gender, then what is there to complain about?

  16. Chris , I am surprised and somewhat offended by your comments.You are in the RS presidency, and yet, seem to want these women (your sisters) to just shut up and accept that they will always be downtrodden spiritually, mentally and emotionally in the church. I don’t find that very becoming of someone who is supposed to uphold and support her fellow sisters. I suspect you would probably have said the same things to black families prior to 1978 who only wanted the same blessings every other member of the church had.Now we find out that wasn’t even doctrine (supposedly). So what else isn’t doctrine and only the opinion of 12 men in SLC ? I suspect many things,I’m surprised women in the church accept this nonsense and don’t speak up more about injustices towards them in the church, except maybe they feel threatened with losing their eternal salvation if they DO speak up.So again, the men get their way and women just keep popping the pills to hide their depression and the constant guilt trips the church puts on them.

    1. KC – I really do appreciate you so succinctly illustrating the point I have been trying to make. Usually, I love it when people who clearly hate the church and are non believers offer to inform me of my duties as a good mormon woman. One day maybe I’ll share with you what I think your responsibilities are as a church hater. Then we can be even. For now though, your post plainly points out the phenomena of which I speak. That of people who are outside the church, and have ill toward it, attempting to remold it in the way they see fit. I have no idea why you throw in the blacks and priesthood thing. I don’t ever remember hearing about a bunch of black men trying to force their way into priesthood meeting. I find when people start throwing this into other non related issues it is usually because they have exhausted the limits of their intellect and thus their ability to support their point. It the equivalent of saying “you are wrong about this and that and on top of that you are a racist too”. I must admit, it made me laugh out loud! It just continues to surprise me that so many here only support women who want to say negative, bad things about the church. If a woman comes on and voices that she is completely happy, satisfied and fulfilled with her present role you all don’t want to hear it. Weird. I thought the whole point of this was to support women standing up for themselves. I guess you only mean “some” women. I guess I better get back to being downtrodden now. My mean, repressive husband is taking our kids tomorrow so I can spend the day skiing with my girlfriends, that jerk.

  17. KC you seem very angry, and therefore, in your attempts to support your views you continue to offend others. It only makes things worse by attacking and belittling other’s thoughts and perspectives. Meg was only pointing out that she found it interesting that it hailed harder as these people began their march. It is true that there are many accounts in the scriptures that talk about how God uses the weather to teach the people certain lessons. You are right in the fact that the weather does often effect all who are in the same area. Just like it rained on Noah and his family too. The hail and fire came down on the Israelites as well as the Egyptians. But God protected the faithful and they were blessed. I believe that it is blasphemy to deny that it possibly could have been a sign. There is nothing wrong with wondering if it was because this group was doing what the church leaders asked them not to do. You have the right to have your opinions about this, but you should not slam others for having there’s.

  18. KC, it is not the men who are getting their way, it is God. And the majority of the women in the church do NOT feel like there are injustices towards them. They love and support the prophet and the brethren, and by doing so, show their faithful trust in God.

  19. This really is pretty easy to understand. This group had a question, they asked it, the church gave their response, the group demonstrated even when asked not to, the church gave an answer again, yet many continue to persist and won’t accept the answer. If it is true that some of the people saying mean things to them were members, well then, that is wrong and they shouldn’t have. But it is also wrong for this group to disregard the church’s request and demonstrate anyway, especially for any members to be involved at that point. Any active member understands that they should follow the prophet’s council, even if it is contrary to how they feel about a topic. The scriptures refer to this as strict obedience. When people do not abide by the brethren’s council and continue to pursue their own agendas, they are not being obedient to the Lord. It really is that simple.

  20. Chris~ Who said I am “Outside The Church” ? I never did,just class me as a member who has recently had their eyes opened and do not like what I have found out, especially the dishonesty the leadership has displayed about church history. I do not appreciate being lied to by people who are supposed to be spiritual leaders.I don’t think it is necessary to just “accept” what the brethren say, they make mistakes , lots of them, especially Brigham Young, who spoke a lot of things as a “prophet” only years later his teachings not supported by todays leaders. The church tried to shut women up about the Equal Rights Amendment ~ I remember it well, I was a teen when it all went down, and a perfectly lovely church member Sonia Johnson was excommunicated for no good reason……and DL what utter rubbish to suggest that people who do not abide by the brethren’s council are not being obedient to the Lord, as if the brethren are perfect and can not make mistakes, they can and do make mistakes often. To give your whole mind and heart over to a mere mortal in the quest to be viewed as “obedient” is sad.By saying that, you are saying that no one has any right to question the supposed prophet ( That’s how Joseph Smith got away with marrying 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball and marrying 11 already married women, destroying a printing press and bankrupting members who put money into his Kiirtand bank) At least open your eyes to what these women are trying to do , I see no problem with women having the priesthood, there was priestesses in the bible, why not now? I’ll tell you why, because the men are scared the women would do a better job than them. I’m glad the group demonstrated when asked not to.
    I don’t think we should always follow the prophets council when it’s country to how we feel inside about something (That’s how the Warren Jeffs and the David Koresh’s and the Jim Jones of this world get absolute power over their members) I think it’s healthy to challenge something you feel is unjust in the church, I think more members should have stood up for Sonia Johnson, the black members of their wards pre 1978 and stood against the early leaders of the church who practised polygamy (what a heinous teaching that was ) But we all accepted it blindly “because the prophet said so” even though inside you felt it was wrong. How many of us went along with it for fear of being branded an apostate. I applaud these women and give them my full support on this matter.

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